Do you like RPGs? Do you like leveling? Do you like all the min-maxing involved? Read this stuff. It is heavily based on DnD and similar systems, first chapters are basically all about character creation and half of the novel seems to be about just leveling (and getting OP). Terms are complete Chinese to non-DnDers. And it made me reinstall NWN with PRC and play Rakshasa true neutral Dread Necro. Even though MC of this novel is neutral good and despises grays...
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She doesn't despise grays. She makes good use of them, exploiting them like they want to exploit her. they get paid to do a job, and sent on their way. She REWARDS people who are good, because being a Good person is way harder then not. The Mark is a reward, in her view, and she's just not going to hand it out to people who want a freebie. She's also very aware of the effect neutrals have on good people, which most people are not. Neutrals are what kill the good, not evil. Evil makes good burn brighter.== RED
OH, and thank you very much for the review!== Ael
See, I cannot agree to this. It is a common problem with alignment; it does not embrace all possible approaches, personal values and motivations. And sorting usually used 3x3 alignment into good/gray/evil generalizes that even more. These exploiting are (from my experience) usually chaotic good/neutral. And even they can often take approach like "let's try it if it brings money of back out if it's not worth it." Alignment is NOT absolute. Unless you are lawful good fanatic. Also, being evil is generally not easy. Try to start level 1 evil character in normal world in decent (or even not decent) society. It's really hard, one bad move and you end up on the gallows. Yes, you can level quickly, but you are also always in lethal danger. And every time I try re-animating dead squadron of paladins comes to vanquish me (also, I tried playing non-DnD lawful good necromancer, it was really funny, but also one of the most ******** stuff I ever done). Based on my experience, actual good and evil actions are not so much according to alignment. This is my ranking based on experience from most evil actions to most good: 1. Lawful good (fanatics) – these are extremely fanatical and inflexible. Everything defined as evil have to exterminated without question, individuals are generalized, no adaptation to situation is permitted. 2. Chaotic evil (mad) – they just go and kill/rape/whatever. Completely crazy. Basically demons. 3. Neutral evil (cultists) – people serving some bad demon/devil/god/Cthulhu. Same as fanatics, but mostly conscious that they are not doing nice stuff. 4. Lawful evil (devils) – devils only. They live to corrupt, manipulate and make business. Always keep their words. Best merchants, if your intelligence is high enough to deal with them (yes, it is dangerous). 5. Chaotic good/neutral / true neutral (dick-ass) – they ignores others and think only about themselves. Neither good nor bad, just selfish. Yes, can be demoralizing (but in the most of the worlds I have seen, they have been so common that good people where found amusing). 6. Neutrals (circumventers) – they bend the rules to their liking. Often making it the right opposite. 7. Lawful good (idealists) – these are extremely *****. They think everything is ****** and things are just good or evil. They get mad once it doesn’t work and often fall from grace. 8. Lawful neutral (judges) – bound by rules that make them never pick a side. Objective to the bone, but they often just avoid the choice. “Special place in hell.” 9. Chaotics (*******-seekers) – they will do everything to break rules just to do so. They hate current system/rules and want to change them (to better). Often dangerous anarchists. 10. True neutral (apathetic) – they ignore everything and do nothing. 11. Neutral/chaotic good (little helpers) – they completely ignore the big picture and do what they see as right on small scale. 12. Lawful evil (sacrificing) – they completely ignore small scale sacrificing everything necessary to save the whole world. If defeated by idiotic hero-wannabees, it gets really bad unless the heroes are really strong. True heroes. 13. Neutral good / true neutral (realists) – they do what they have to to survive, protect their brethren and make the world better place for their children (in about this order). Often unappreciated, but the most rational. 14. Neutral/lawful good (wisest elders) – basically anti-devils. They “corrupt” bad people to do good stuff. Really hard, but seems most good thing possible. As you can see, I do not see Sama in a very good light. Based on my experiences, she seems to be not neutral good realist, but more like lawful good fanatic or circumventer that kills everything that by their definition is seen as evil. Truly good character would not see evil as evil, but as these that have to be set on the right path.
Aelryinth:She doesn't despise grays. She makes good use of them, exploiting them like they want to exploit her. they get paid to do a job, and sent on their way. She REWARDS people who are good, because being a Good person is way harder then not. The Mark is a reward, in her view, and she's just not going to hand it out to people who want a freebie. She's also very aware of the effect neutrals have on good people, which most people are not. Neutrals are what kill the good, not evil. Evil makes good burn brighter.== RED
This censureship is really nonsense. Freedom is censured, so liberty as well?"
MARKZ137:See, I cannot agree to this. It is a common problem with alignment; it does not embrace all possible approaches, personal values and motivations. And sorting usually used 3x3 alignment into good/gray/evil generalizes that even more. These exploiting are (from my experience) usually chaotic good/neutral. And even they can often take approach like "let's try it if it brings money of back out if it's not worth it." Alignment is NOT absolute. Unless you are lawful good fanatic. Also, being evil is generally not easy. Try to start level 1 evil character in normal world in decent (or even not decent) society. It's really hard, one bad move and you end up on the gallows. Yes, you can level quickly, but you are also always in lethal danger. And every time I try re-animating dead squadron of paladins comes to vanquish me (also, I tried playing non-DnD lawful good necromancer, it was really funny, but also one of the most ******** stuff I ever done). Based on my experience, actual good and evil actions are not so much according to alignment. This is my ranking based on experience from most evil actions to most good: 1. Lawful good (fanatics) – these are extremely fanatical and inflexible. Everything defined as evil have to exterminated without question, individuals are generalized, no adaptation to situation is permitted. 2. Chaotic evil (mad) – they just go and kill/rape/whatever. Completely crazy. Basically demons. 3. Neutral evil (cultists) – people serving some bad demon/devil/god/Cthulhu. Same as fanatics, but mostly conscious that they are not doing nice stuff. 4. Lawful evil (devils) – devils only. They live to corrupt, manipulate and make business. Always keep their words. Best merchants, if your intelligence is high enough to deal with them (yes, it is dangerous). 5. Chaotic good/neutral / true neutral (dick-ass) – they ignores others and think only about themselves. Neither good nor bad, just selfish. Yes, can be demoralizing (but in the most of the worlds I have seen, they have been so common that good people where found amusing). 6. Neutrals (circumventers) – they bend the rules to their liking. Often making it the right opposite. 7. Lawful good (idealists) – these are extremely *****. They think everything is ****** and things are just good or evil. They get mad once it doesn’t work and often fall from grace. 8. Lawful neutral (judges) – bound by rules that make them never pick a side. Objective to the bone, but they often just avoid the choice. “Special place in hell.” 9. Chaotics (*******-seekers) – they will do everything to break rules just to do so. They hate current system/rules and want to change them (to better). Often dangerous anarchists. 10. True neutral (apathetic) – they ignore everything and do nothing. 11. Neutral/chaotic good (little helpers) – they completely ignore the big picture and do what they see as right on small scale. 12. Lawful evil (sacrificing) – they completely ignore small scale sacrificing everything necessary to save the whole world. If defeated by idiotic hero-wannabees, it gets really bad unless the heroes are really strong. True heroes. 13. Neutral good / true neutral (realists) – they do what they have to to survive, protect their brethren and make the world better place for their children (in about this order). Often unappreciated, but the most rational. 14. Neutral/lawful good (wisest elders) – basically anti-devils. They “corrupt” bad people to do good stuff. Really hard, but seems most good thing possible. As you can see, I do not see Sama in a very good light. Based on my experiences, she seems to be not neutral good realist, but more like lawful good fanatic or circumventer that kills everything that by their definition is seen as evil. Truly good character would not see evil as evil, but as these that have to be set on the right path.
Interesting, capitals seems to make the difference. Freedom is OK, but ******* is not (F/f).
Ahhh, alignment discussions. Well, the truth is that you're going about it backwards. Alignment isn't about what people think. Alignment is Itself. Lawful Good is Lawful Good. SOmeone who is trying to play Lawful Good is trying to emulate the alignment., trying to get closer to it. Someone using "I'm Lawful Good, so I have to exterminate Evil," is not Lawful Good at all. Alignment does not justify actions. Actions resonate with Alignments. This is VERY different from RPG's, because you have to accomodate players, who can come up with all sorts of reasons to justify their actions, and if you want the game to continue, you have to let it slide. So, your examples: 1) Lawful Good (fanatics): these guts are quintessential LN, bordering on LE, blind to their own shortcomings, killing for the sake of killing. ALignment does not justify slaughter. This is known as Lawful Stupid. 2) Chaotic Evil/mad : well, insanity is insanity. Some would argue that being insane, they are CN. CE would ENJOY the slaughter, and actively pursue it. The Joker is not CN. 3) Neutral Evil: Cult fanatics out for benefits for themselves. Sure, that works. Actively doing bad stuff to better themselves at the expense of others. 4) LE/Devils: Devils may keep their word, but they live to twist that word to their advantage. They make great lawyers and merchants, because they kill you with the laws you respect the most, and take your money while they do it. 5) CG/CN/TN asshole: These people aren't Good, because Good people don't act that way. They are using alignment as an excuse. Being a N or CN asshole is totally possible, but these kind of people usually devolve to evil (soft e), doing moderately bad **** in the name of others and foisting off the blame, following no laws but their own. 6) N circumventers: Textbook False Neutrals. Follow the law when convenient, ignore it when not. 7) Lawful Good idealists: Sorry, this is LN. These are the inflexible blokes who are two sided. LG means good, good means empathy. Good means toleraance. This isn't LG. 8) LN judges: Nope, this is Neutral. You have the phrase right: never pick a side. False Neutral all the way, baby. 9) CN thrill seekers: Yeah, dipping into CE if they willingly harm innocents without care. 10) TN apathy: False Neutral, same as 8. Not picking a side intellectually and from lazily amount to not picking a side. Logic or emotion end up in the same place. 11) N/CG little helpers: Now THIS is Good. LG would be exactly the same way. Being Lawful doesn't mean you are a big thinker. 12) LE sacrificing: The definition here is LE if they are willing to sacrifice others to better themselves or save themselves. If they are altruistic and willing to also sacrifice themselves, this is textbook LN. The LE badass who sacrifices everyone else to save the world... is really just saving himself. If he's willing to die to save the world, he's LN and just ********. If he was LG, he'd let everyone know they might need to sacrifice themselves, and lead them into the final fight ready to die with them... true heroism. 13) NG/TN realists: This usually comes down to treatment of their neighbors. False Neutral focus on community and will take often heartless advantage of outsiders. NG tends to treat everyone the way they want to be treated... until the other party takes advantage of it, at which point they are frozen out. Sama is NG... she discriminates against those who have proven by their actions in the past that they aren't Good people, and who want to take advantage of her for their own benefit. She has the right to refuse them, and she's exerting it. 14) N/LG wise elders: This is indeed playing the highest game of Good, having people doing the right things despite not wanting to. This is the game Mithar, the god of Paladins, excels at. So, what this is all comes down to is 'playing a game alignment' vs Alignment being a real thing and fundamental force. It's a very different thing. (ran out of space)
MARKZ137:See, I cannot agree to this. It is a common problem with alignment; it does not embrace all possible approaches, personal values and motivations. And sorting usually used 3x3 alignment into good/gray/evil generalizes that even more. These exploiting are (from my experience) usually chaotic good/neutral. And even they can often take approach like "let's try it if it brings money of back out if it's not worth it." Alignment is NOT absolute. Unless you are lawful good fanatic. Also, being evil is generally not easy. Try to start level 1 evil character in normal world in decent (or even not decent) society. It's really hard, one bad move and you end up on the gallows. Yes, you can level quickly, but you are also always in lethal danger. And every time I try re-animating dead squadron of paladins comes to vanquish me (also, I tried playing non-DnD lawful good necromancer, it was really funny, but also one of the most ******** stuff I ever done). Based on my experience, actual good and evil actions are not so much according to alignment. This is my ranking based on experience from most evil actions to most good: 1. Lawful good (fanatics) – these are extremely fanatical and inflexible. Everything defined as evil have to exterminated without question, individuals are generalized, no adaptation to situation is permitted. 2. Chaotic evil (mad) – they just go and kill/rape/whatever. Completely crazy. Basically demons. 3. Neutral evil (cultists) – people serving some bad demon/devil/god/Cthulhu. Same as fanatics, but mostly conscious that they are not doing nice stuff. 4. Lawful evil (devils) – devils only. They live to corrupt, manipulate and make business. Always keep their words. Best merchants, if your intelligence is high enough to deal with them (yes, it is dangerous). 5. Chaotic good/neutral / true neutral (dick-ass) – they ignores others and think only about themselves. Neither good nor bad, just selfish. Yes, can be demoralizing (but in the most of the worlds I have seen, they have been so common that good people where found amusing). 6. Neutrals (circumventers) – they bend the rules to their liking. Often making it the right opposite. 7. Lawful good (idealists) – these are extremely *****. They think everything is ****** and things are just good or evil. They get mad once it doesn’t work and often fall from grace. 8. Lawful neutral (judges) – bound by rules that make them never pick a side. Objective to the bone, but they often just avoid the choice. “Special place in hell.” 9. Chaotics (*******-seekers) – they will do everything to break rules just to do so. They hate current system/rules and want to change them (to better). Often dangerous anarchists. 10. True neutral (apathetic) – they ignore everything and do nothing. 11. Neutral/chaotic good (little helpers) – they completely ignore the big picture and do what they see as right on small scale. 12. Lawful evil (sacrificing) – they completely ignore small scale sacrificing everything necessary to save the whole world. If defeated by idiotic hero-wannabees, it gets really bad unless the heroes are really strong. True heroes. 13. Neutral good / true neutral (realists) – they do what they have to to survive, protect their brethren and make the world better place for their children (in about this order). Often unappreciated, but the most rational. 14. Neutral/lawful good (wisest elders) – basically anti-devils. They “corrupt” bad people to do good stuff. Really hard, but seems most good thing possible. As you can see, I do not see Sama in a very good light. Based on my experiences, she seems to be not neutral good realist, but more like lawful good fanatic or circumventer that kills everything that by their definition is seen as evil. Truly good character would not see evil as evil, but as these that have to be set on the right path.
Evil is actually extremely easy to play. Nothing says that you can be a nice guy and team player, right up until you execute a dozen hostages to get the job done. EVERYTHING Good can do... Evil can do. Be charitable. Give candy to kids. Support the local arts. Smile all the time. Wear bright clothes. Give credit where credit is due. And if you can hang an innocent man with a smile to better yourself, hey, those close-minded fools don't have to know. Evil is charming, because Evil doesn't care if they lie, cheat, or steal. They don't feel guilty, only the foolish do. So, playing an Evil alignment isn't hard at all. The fact you can be more ruthless then the rest, and have more options at will, doesn't mean you have to take them all the time. you don't need to backstab your friends... having people who are nicer then you as friends is actually an IMMENSE asset for an evil person. Better the devil they know and all that. It sounds like you had a DM who was enforcing societal rejection of blatant evil behavior... and in any setting where actual Gods are saying "you are doing a BAD thing by reanimating the dead" and spells are telling you that youa re doing EVIL by doing so... well, there are consequences for blatantly evil actions, right? That applies to the real world, and to RPG's. Only in video games can you be evil without consequences, because the goal in a video game is for you to experience the story line and see all the branches, NOT to be a nice guy while doing it. Hell, there was a video game that justified it by saying, "He's the chosen of the gods who's going to save us all. If he's an evil prick who takes advantage of it, what can we do?" So, I don't have sympathy for the whole necromancer thing. Yeah, it's a powerful option. Necromancers are the only people who can assemble their own forces far ahead of time, and keep on building them, as long as they can control them. It's far, far cheaper then Summoning or Calling things in. It's also enslaving the souls and remnants of people who generally have not given permission, it's utter defiance of the natural order, it introduces loads of negative energy into the world that harms the living, and even non-intelligent undead have an evil aura and seek to feed and kill the living unless controlled. The fact it's completely practical for the necromancer, and so in his eyes totally justifiable... is what makes the necromancer evil. Or, if you neighbor next door has a combat-trained rottweiler that will rip your throat, and those of your family, out if he ever gets out of the yard, and he's always trying to, but is a perfect dog as long as his master is near, just how safe do you feel? If you have any brains, and you love your family, you will get rid of that dog before it kills you. Undead are just like that, and necromancers only want more of them. So, no sympathy for necromancers here. IN that world, the CHurch of Harse does have White Necromancers, who deal with the spirits of those willing to serve after, free of will (as opposed to compelled, which is what LN and LE do). They spend most of their time putting down undead (i.e. reversed Animate Dead, Go Down), as opposed to animating them, setting cursed undead to rest, listening to the last wills of spirits, etc. True Necromancers, not just reanimating fools. :) So again... in a real world with alignments, actions determine alignments. ALignments do not justify actions! Good alignments can't act like pricks, because they do not determine what is Good. Good defines itself. If they are not acting Good, then they aren't Good, period, no matter how much they justify themselves. The Profound Alignments are things Divinities cannot define, beyond even them. A pitiful mortal soul has no chance. ==Ael
MARKZ137:See, I cannot agree to this. It is a common problem with alignment; it does not embrace all possible approaches, personal values and motivations. And sorting usually used 3x3 alignment into good/gray/evil generalizes that even more. These exploiting are (from my experience) usually chaotic good/neutral. And even they can often take approach like "let's try it if it brings money of back out if it's not worth it." Alignment is NOT absolute. Unless you are lawful good fanatic. Also, being evil is generally not easy. Try to start level 1 evil character in normal world in decent (or even not decent) society. It's really hard, one bad move and you end up on the gallows. Yes, you can level quickly, but you are also always in lethal danger. And every time I try re-animating dead squadron of paladins comes to vanquish me (also, I tried playing non-DnD lawful good necromancer, it was really funny, but also one of the most ******** stuff I ever done). Based on my experience, actual good and evil actions are not so much according to alignment. This is my ranking based on experience from most evil actions to most good: 1. Lawful good (fanatics) – these are extremely fanatical and inflexible. Everything defined as evil have to exterminated without question, individuals are generalized, no adaptation to situation is permitted. 2. Chaotic evil (mad) – they just go and kill/rape/whatever. Completely crazy. Basically demons. 3. Neutral evil (cultists) – people serving some bad demon/devil/god/Cthulhu. Same as fanatics, but mostly conscious that they are not doing nice stuff. 4. Lawful evil (devils) – devils only. They live to corrupt, manipulate and make business. Always keep their words. Best merchants, if your intelligence is high enough to deal with them (yes, it is dangerous). 5. Chaotic good/neutral / true neutral (dick-ass) – they ignores others and think only about themselves. Neither good nor bad, just selfish. Yes, can be demoralizing (but in the most of the worlds I have seen, they have been so common that good people where found amusing). 6. Neutrals (circumventers) – they bend the rules to their liking. Often making it the right opposite. 7. Lawful good (idealists) – these are extremely *****. They think everything is ****** and things are just good or evil. They get mad once it doesn’t work and often fall from grace. 8. Lawful neutral (judges) – bound by rules that make them never pick a side. Objective to the bone, but they often just avoid the choice. “Special place in hell.” 9. Chaotics (*******-seekers) – they will do everything to break rules just to do so. They hate current system/rules and want to change them (to better). Often dangerous anarchists. 10. True neutral (apathetic) – they ignore everything and do nothing. 11. Neutral/chaotic good (little helpers) – they completely ignore the big picture and do what they see as right on small scale. 12. Lawful evil (sacrificing) – they completely ignore small scale sacrificing everything necessary to save the whole world. If defeated by idiotic hero-wannabees, it gets really bad unless the heroes are really strong. True heroes. 13. Neutral good / true neutral (realists) – they do what they have to to survive, protect their brethren and make the world better place for their children (in about this order). Often unappreciated, but the most rational. 14. Neutral/lawful good (wisest elders) – basically anti-devils. They “corrupt” bad people to do good stuff. Really hard, but seems most good thing possible. As you can see, I do not see Sama in a very good light. Based on my experiences, she seems to be not neutral good realist, but more like lawful good fanatic or circumventer that kills everything that by their definition is seen as evil. Truly good character would not see evil as evil, but as these that have to be set on the right path.
Here's a Great Link: https://v1.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/tabletop/checkfortraps/8386-All-About-Alignment Esp Page Four, where he looks at what is 'good' from the perspective of people who are certain ways. In a world where alignment exists, and you can actually see how close someone's aura is to a particular alignment, these viewpoints can't be like our own... because the alignments define themselves, we don't define them. I love the CE person who defines things by reasonable/unreasonable, and dogmatic/pragmatic. LG is dogmatic and unreasonable from their perspective, and hence 'bad', while they themselves are 'reasonable and pragmatic'. Hilarious, but completely true! True Neutrals seeing LG as Vainglorious and with Rigid Morals is also hilarious yet true. Video gamers are too used to 'holy' and 'unholy' just being energies anyone can use. The whole idea of Good and Evil actually having power and meaning doesn't translate to video games very well at all. You can see that what is 'good' and 'evil' for each alignment is wildly variable, and can totally be skewed to justify their own position as the best. What is 'actually' Good or Evil is, however, outside their realm of control. Ahh, alignment threads. Sorry if I went overboard for you! = Ael
MARKZ137:See, I cannot agree to this. It is a common problem with alignment; it does not embrace all possible approaches, personal values and motivations. And sorting usually used 3x3 alignment into good/gray/evil generalizes that even more. These exploiting are (from my experience) usually chaotic good/neutral. And even they can often take approach like "let's try it if it brings money of back out if it's not worth it." Alignment is NOT absolute. Unless you are lawful good fanatic. Also, being evil is generally not easy. Try to start level 1 evil character in normal world in decent (or even not decent) society. It's really hard, one bad move and you end up on the gallows. Yes, you can level quickly, but you are also always in lethal danger. And every time I try re-animating dead squadron of paladins comes to vanquish me (also, I tried playing non-DnD lawful good necromancer, it was really funny, but also one of the most ******** stuff I ever done). Based on my experience, actual good and evil actions are not so much according to alignment. This is my ranking based on experience from most evil actions to most good: 1. Lawful good (fanatics) – these are extremely fanatical and inflexible. Everything defined as evil have to exterminated without question, individuals are generalized, no adaptation to situation is permitted. 2. Chaotic evil (mad) – they just go and kill/rape/whatever. Completely crazy. Basically demons. 3. Neutral evil (cultists) – people serving some bad demon/devil/god/Cthulhu. Same as fanatics, but mostly conscious that they are not doing nice stuff. 4. Lawful evil (devils) – devils only. They live to corrupt, manipulate and make business. Always keep their words. Best merchants, if your intelligence is high enough to deal with them (yes, it is dangerous). 5. Chaotic good/neutral / true neutral (dick-ass) – they ignores others and think only about themselves. Neither good nor bad, just selfish. Yes, can be demoralizing (but in the most of the worlds I have seen, they have been so common that good people where found amusing). 6. Neutrals (circumventers) – they bend the rules to their liking. Often making it the right opposite. 7. Lawful good (idealists) – these are extremely *****. They think everything is ****** and things are just good or evil. They get mad once it doesn’t work and often fall from grace. 8. Lawful neutral (judges) – bound by rules that make them never pick a side. Objective to the bone, but they often just avoid the choice. “Special place in hell.” 9. Chaotics (*******-seekers) – they will do everything to break rules just to do so. They hate current system/rules and want to change them (to better). Often dangerous anarchists. 10. True neutral (apathetic) – they ignore everything and do nothing. 11. Neutral/chaotic good (little helpers) – they completely ignore the big picture and do what they see as right on small scale. 12. Lawful evil (sacrificing) – they completely ignore small scale sacrificing everything necessary to save the whole world. If defeated by idiotic hero-wannabees, it gets really bad unless the heroes are really strong. True heroes. 13. Neutral good / true neutral (realists) – they do what they have to to survive, protect their brethren and make the world better place for their children (in about this order). Often unappreciated, but the most rational. 14. Neutral/lawful good (wisest elders) – basically anti-devils. They “corrupt” bad people to do good stuff. Really hard, but seems most good thing possible. As you can see, I do not see Sama in a very good light. Based on my experiences, she seems to be not neutral good realist, but more like lawful good fanatic or circumventer that kills everything that by their definition is seen as evil. Truly good character would not see evil as evil, but as these that have to be set on the right path.
Thanks, it is always nice to see another point of view and you have really defined the main problem and yes, it makes no sense to use alignment for the sake of alignment. You are completely right, unfortunately, this is often what most of games (both videogames and rule abiding roleplays) are often about. On 12) LE sacrificing: The problem is, they would often love to tell the people and not just fight alone, but problem is, people mostly either ignore them or telling them makes it even worse. Just a Simple question: What alignment do you think void brothers are? They definitely see the big picture and try to make the world a better place even thought they have to sacrifice something and are definitely lawful as they seem to strictly abide to their personal rules. World clearly see them as LE or even CE, yet we know they are good guys. Also, every DM tends to have a little different approach to alignment and even rules may in some cases contradict themselves (I have never had much love for alignment, so I haven’t researched this in detail). My personal approach is to rather describe characters actions, goals and viewpoints and let DMs to judge them (in case I am not the DM, but I have so far never DMed any game with DnD rules and at most once used G/E axis (players somehow tended to solve everything with violence (and they have been playing battle mages not barbarians!) and I had to find a way to show them that there may be consequences for their actions)).
Aelryinth:Ahhh, alignment discussions. Well, the truth is that you're going about it backwards. Alignment isn't about what people think. Alignment is Itself. Lawful Good is Lawful Good. SOmeone who is trying to play Lawful Good is trying to emulate the alignment., trying to get closer to it. Someone using "I'm Lawful Good, so I have to exterminate Evil," is not Lawful Good at all. Alignment does not justify actions. Actions resonate with Alignments. This is VERY different from RPG's, because you have to accomodate players, who can come up with all sorts of reasons to justify their actions, and if you want the game to continue, you have to let it slide. So, your examples: 1) Lawful Good (fanatics): these guts are quintessential LN, bordering on LE, blind to their own shortcomings, killing for the sake of killing. ALignment does not justify slaughter. This is known as Lawful Stupid. 2) Chaotic Evil/mad : well, insanity is insanity. Some would argue that being insane, they are CN. CE would ENJOY the slaughter, and actively pursue it. The Joker is not CN. 3) Neutral Evil: Cult fanatics out for benefits for themselves. Sure, that works. Actively doing bad stuff to better themselves at the expense of others. 4) LE/Devils: Devils may keep their word, but they live to twist that word to their advantage. They make great lawyers and merchants, because they kill you with the laws you respect the most, and take your money while they do it. 5) CG/CN/TN asshole: These people aren't Good, because Good people don't act that way. They are using alignment as an excuse. Being a N or CN asshole is totally possible, but these kind of people usually devolve to evil (soft e), doing moderately bad **** in the name of others and foisting off the blame, following no laws but their own. 6) N circumventers: Textbook False Neutrals. Follow the law when convenient, ignore it when not. 7) Lawful Good idealists: Sorry, this is LN. These are the inflexible blokes who are two sided. LG means good, good means empathy. Good means toleraance. This isn't LG. 8) LN judges: Nope, this is Neutral. You have the phrase right: never pick a side. False Neutral all the way, baby. 9) CN thrill seekers: Yeah, dipping into CE if they willingly harm innocents without care. 10) TN apathy: False Neutral, same as 8. Not picking a side intellectually and from lazily amount to not picking a side. Logic or emotion end up in the same place. 11) N/CG little helpers: Now THIS is Good. LG would be exactly the same way. Being Lawful doesn't mean you are a big thinker. 12) LE sacrificing: The definition here is LE if they are willing to sacrifice others to better themselves or save themselves. If they are altruistic and willing to also sacrifice themselves, this is textbook LN. The LE badass who sacrifices everyone else to save the world... is really just saving himself. If he's willing to die to save the world, he's LN and just ********. If he was LG, he'd let everyone know they might need to sacrifice themselves, and lead them into the final fight ready to die with them... true heroism. 13) NG/TN realists: This usually comes down to treatment of their neighbors. False Neutral focus on community and will take often heartless advantage of outsiders. NG tends to treat everyone the way they want to be treated... until the other party takes advantage of it, at which point they are frozen out. Sama is NG... she discriminates against those who have proven by their actions in the past that they aren't Good people, and who want to take advantage of her for their own benefit. She has the right to refuse them, and she's exerting it. 14) N/LG wise elders: This is indeed playing the highest game of Good, having people doing the right things despite not wanting to. This is the game Mithar, the god of Paladins, excels at. So, what this is all comes down to is 'playing a game alignment' vs Alignment being a real thing and fundamental force. It's a very different thing. (ran out of space)
The idea of “evil can do what good can but good cannot do what evil can”… It makes perfect sense to me on L/C axis, but not definitively for G/E. Good guys can also pretend that they accept evil and behave like that in evil societies. I have seen this in a lot in drow societies. But I understand your point, less good characters have it easier in the sense they are usually not so mentally restricted to commit certain actions. And yes, evil characters especially want to have ONLY good friends. Because they know what people like them can do. But problem is if what you are doing (and you believe is right) is found very evil in society you live in. This is especially case for necromancers. I admit I have never heard about White necros before (according to google they are golemmancers or something?) but I have seen some clerics doing similar stuff (like, at least every cleric can turn undead and stuff). Considering the “common” version of necromancers, I do not think they just always have to be evil, but that depends on what makes them evil. Mostly, it is simplified to just “unholy” or “negative” energy. That’s the same as saying that gamma radiation is dangerous and therefore nuclear plants are evil. Other reasons are that they enslave and torment souls or that they steal corpses. If the people give their permission before death (often companions) it can be found reasonable. And if they are former criminals, how can being reanimated worse than their fate in hell? Also, I find the general consensus that all undead are evil and want to kill the living incredibly stupid. Yes, it is understandable in the case of mindless undead that just follow some undead instincts, but why (considering his mind is preserved to a great degree and he has a free will) should not the intelligent undead be able to make their own choices? Even in DnD you can find reasonable undead (and there are even LG bealnorns). The LG necromancer I have played was trying to create intelligent undead from criminals that were executed. By giving them a free will he gave them a chance to atone for their crimes and avoid hell. Mostly it failed, but psychopaths/sociopaths often managed to be pretty acceptable.
Aelryinth:Evil is actually extremely easy to play. Nothing says that you can be a nice guy and team player, right up until you execute a dozen hostages to get the job done. EVERYTHING Good can do... Evil can do. Be charitable. Give candy to kids. Support the local arts. Smile all the time. Wear bright clothes. Give credit where credit is due. And if you can hang an innocent man with a smile to better yourself, hey, those close-minded fools don't have to know. Evil is charming, because Evil doesn't care if they lie, cheat, or steal. They don't feel guilty, only the foolish do. So, playing an Evil alignment isn't hard at all. The fact you can be more ruthless then the rest, and have more options at will, doesn't mean you have to take them all the time. you don't need to backstab your friends... having people who are nicer then you as friends is actually an IMMENSE asset for an evil person. Better the devil they know and all that. It sounds like you had a DM who was enforcing societal rejection of blatant evil behavior... and in any setting where actual Gods are saying "you are doing a BAD thing by reanimating the dead" and spells are telling you that youa re doing EVIL by doing so... well, there are consequences for blatantly evil actions, right? That applies to the real world, and to RPG's. Only in video games can you be evil without consequences, because the goal in a video game is for you to experience the story line and see all the branches, NOT to be a nice guy while doing it. Hell, there was a video game that justified it by saying, "He's the chosen of the gods who's going to save us all. If he's an evil prick who takes advantage of it, what can we do?" So, I don't have sympathy for the whole necromancer thing. Yeah, it's a powerful option. Necromancers are the only people who can assemble their own forces far ahead of time, and keep on building them, as long as they can control them. It's far, far cheaper then Summoning or Calling things in. It's also enslaving the souls and remnants of people who generally have not given permission, it's utter defiance of the natural order, it introduces loads of negative energy into the world that harms the living, and even non-intelligent undead have an evil aura and seek to feed and kill the living unless controlled. The fact it's completely practical for the necromancer, and so in his eyes totally justifiable... is what makes the necromancer evil. Or, if you neighbor next door has a combat-trained rottweiler that will rip your throat, and those of your family, out if he ever gets out of the yard, and he's always trying to, but is a perfect dog as long as his master is near, just how safe do you feel? If you have any brains, and you love your family, you will get rid of that dog before it kills you. Undead are just like that, and necromancers only want more of them. So, no sympathy for necromancers here. IN that world, the CHurch of Harse does have White Necromancers, who deal with the spirits of those willing to serve after, free of will (as opposed to compelled, which is what LN and LE do). They spend most of their time putting down undead (i.e. reversed Animate Dead, Go Down), as opposed to animating them, setting cursed undead to rest, listening to the last wills of spirits, etc. True Necromancers, not just reanimating fools. :) So again... in a real world with alignments, actions determine alignments. ALignments do not justify actions! Good alignments can't act like pricks, because they do not determine what is Good. Good defines itself. If they are not acting Good, then they aren't Good, period, no matter how much they justify themselves. The Profound Alignments are things Divinities cannot define, beyond even them. A pitiful mortal soul has no chance. ==Ael
Yes, I have read something similar before. Alignment have to be taken into account with society you are in. Which is why good characters are so badass in dark fantasy (they would otherwise be long dead), but lame in LG societies. :) Also, does finding the TN’s point of view not hilarious but the most rational, make me as a person true neutral? :D
Aelryinth:Here's a Great Link: https://v1.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/tabletop/checkfortraps/8386-All-About-Alignment Esp Page Four, where he looks at what is 'good' from the perspective of people who are certain ways. In a world where alignment exists, and you can actually see how close someone's aura is to a particular alignment, these viewpoints can't be like our own... because the alignments define themselves, we don't define them. I love the CE person who defines things by reasonable/unreasonable, and dogmatic/pragmatic. LG is dogmatic and unreasonable from their perspective, and hence 'bad', while they themselves are 'reasonable and pragmatic'. Hilarious, but completely true! True Neutrals seeing LG as Vainglorious and with Rigid Morals is also hilarious yet true. Video gamers are too used to 'holy' and 'unholy' just being energies anyone can use. The whole idea of Good and Evil actually having power and meaning doesn't translate to video games very well at all. You can see that what is 'good' and 'evil' for each alignment is wildly variable, and can totally be skewed to justify their own position as the best. What is 'actually' Good or Evil is, however, outside their realm of control. Ahh, alignment threads. Sorry if I went overboard for you! = Ael
NOt sure on the censureship. I should probably set up a discord channel for discussions like this. China has some rules we don't, is all.
MARKZ137:This censureship is really nonsense. Freedom is censured, so liberty as well?"
Well, I know they do censure everything but to censure stuff even in english? :P
Aelryinth:NOt sure on the censureship. I should probably set up a discord channel for discussions like this. China has some rules we don't, is all.
Void Brothers are True Neutral (as opposed to False Neutral). They have no respect for the laws of others beyond Mother Nature, because they are completely bound to Her. They don't respect the borders of mortals, nature is the world, their territory is the world. They don't live disciplined lives, they live the lives of extremely territorial sentients protecting their planet. They have little care for the minor troubles of people, because they are so set on dealing with the big ones. Mercy and charity are generally not things they worry about, because they are always on their way to kill someone or something trying to do bad things. They might WANT to be nice people... but they either don't have time, resent people for being judgmental, or get sold out by others routinely, so they just don't bother with it. They have a thankless job, nobody can truly understand them and what they are virtually compelled to do... and Sama's empathy and understanding is just catching them totally off guard. Void Brothers are the Intelligent and Dextrous Forsaken, clever, ruthless, pragmatic. They bury their emotions because they see the worst of the world all the time. They are getting blindsided by empathy they aren't prepared to deal with, and she's twisting them around her finger. Which doesn't mean they don't have plots and plans of their own...
MARKZ137:Thanks, it is always nice to see another point of view and you have really defined the main problem and yes, it makes no sense to use alignment for the sake of alignment. You are completely right, unfortunately, this is often what most of games (both videogames and rule abiding roleplays) are often about. On 12) LE sacrificing: The problem is, they would often love to tell the people and not just fight alone, but problem is, people mostly either ignore them or telling them makes it even worse. Just a Simple question: What alignment do you think void brothers are? They definitely see the big picture and try to make the world a better place even thought they have to sacrifice something and are definitely lawful as they seem to strictly abide to their personal rules. World clearly see them as LE or even CE, yet we know they are good guys. Also, every DM tends to have a little different approach to alignment and even rules may in some cases contradict themselves (I have never had much love for alignment, so I haven’t researched this in detail). My personal approach is to rather describe characters actions, goals and viewpoints and let DMs to judge them (in case I am not the DM, but I have so far never DMed any game with DnD rules and at most once used G/E axis (players somehow tended to solve everything with violence (and they have been playing battle mages not barbarians!) and I had to find a way to show them that there may be consequences for their actions)).
Actually, the unleashing of radiation upon a populace IS seen as evil. Nuclear power is different, that makes energy. But blowing up a nuclear power plant and shedding dust on an area to make in uninhabitable is basically textbook evil, and a huge terrorist threat. I don't think you understand the G/E axis. Good is not opposed to Evil. Good DENIES Evil. Name a single thing a Good person can do,that an Evil person cannot. There is nothing. Now, name some things an Evil person can do, that a Good person cannot. There are TONS. Good denies itself from doing those actions. Ergo, Good is a subset of Evil, that denies Evil actions. This is why evil refers to good people as 'close-minded'. They simply won't entertain evil notions and options. Evil, Neutral and Good are like an ascending mountain of self-restriction, where fewer and fewer things are permissible. As for undead: White necromancers frequently work with Guardians of the Dead gods. If you are in FR, Anubis' church has many white necromancers in this role. Negative energy kills people and has NO positive benefits for the living. It long term degrades the environment, increases the rate of stillborn, reduces fertility, increases illness... it is exactly like inflicting radiation damage on a society. As for undead being evil... it's because undead are negative energy lifeforms. An undead you is not you, it's a negative energy version of you. All the instincts of life and light and stuff are mirrored to negative energy. Undead are not alive, they are undead, caught between life and death. They are not the soul of the damned, they are a fraction of it. Animating the body of a murderer does not save the murderer at all. If you come back as a wight, you will kill your friends, family, and neighbors as a matter of course, because you are a negative energy version of yourself, and these living fools who dared bring you back will pay for that transgression. Baelnorns and archliches literally require divine intervention to retain their Good alignment (from the elven gods and Mystra, respectively). Otherwise, they face the same fate as all liches. Also, my story uses the Paizo paradigm, that undead are automatically and intrinsically evil, negative energy lifeforms driven to destroy the living. Skeletons and zombies, left uncontrolled, will wander around trying to find the living to kill. Spirits trapped in undeath may be Good, esp. with overarching things that need to be done...but they aren't something a person can conjure up and make a servant, they are poor souls trapped between life and death, suffering torment until they are freed. The energy of life wants to break down your bones and flesh, and let new life grow forth from them once you die. Undeath breaks the cycle of life AND the cycle of death. It's generally indefensible... but evil people love it because its so very practical, and nobody cares if you make slaves of the dead... because that's what you are doing.
MARKZ137:The idea of “evil can do what good can but good cannot do what evil can”… It makes perfect sense to me on L/C axis, but not definitively for G/E. Good guys can also pretend that they accept evil and behave like that in evil societies. I have seen this in a lot in drow societies. But I understand your point, less good characters have it easier in the sense they are usually not so mentally restricted to commit certain actions. And yes, evil characters especially want to have ONLY good friends. Because they know what people like them can do. But problem is if what you are doing (and you believe is right) is found very evil in society you live in. This is especially case for necromancers. I admit I have never heard about White necros before (according to google they are golemmancers or something?) but I have seen some clerics doing similar stuff (like, at least every cleric can turn undead and stuff). Considering the “common” version of necromancers, I do not think they just always have to be evil, but that depends on what makes them evil. Mostly, it is simplified to just “unholy” or “negative” energy. That’s the same as saying that gamma radiation is dangerous and therefore nuclear plants are evil. Other reasons are that they enslave and torment souls or that they steal corpses. If the people give their permission before death (often companions) it can be found reasonable. And if they are former criminals, how can being reanimated worse than their fate in hell? Also, I find the general consensus that all undead are evil and want to kill the living incredibly stupid. Yes, it is understandable in the case of mindless undead that just follow some undead instincts, but why (considering his mind is preserved to a great degree and he has a free will) should not the intelligent undead be able to make their own choices? Even in DnD you can find reasonable undead (and there are even LG bealnorns). The LG necromancer I have played was trying to create intelligent undead from criminals that were executed. By giving them a free will he gave them a chance to atone for their crimes and avoid hell. Mostly it failed, but psychopaths/sociopaths often managed to be pretty acceptable.
rational is the defining characteristic of the TN. Not caring if something is right or wrong, but if it is rational is exactly how animals think, so TN people are just sentients using the same process with more brainpower. that being said, the TN usually prefers having G neighbors to TN neighbors, because G people are easier to take advantage of... a totally rational viewpoint. The power of Good is that it cooperates adn reinforces one another. They share, they team up, they lift one another and they work together on projects that benefit everyone. They try to raise the floor, as well as the ceiling, of the society they live in, and they are willing to sacrifice time and energy to help others without compensation. Neutral will do that for family, if family is close. Otherwise, benefits, compensation, in some form or another. Evil, blatantly so, possibly even against family. Every action and deed having a price that must be paid back is superbly rational... and its how all Evil societies run. There is no such thing as charity. Oh, and most people are in the Neutral to Neutral (good) category. So no, you're not unusual. TRUE Neutral? As a position, that's very philosophical and a hard stance. More likely you're False Neutral, which has nothing to do with balance, nature, or aught else, and is simply the average person unwilling to commit to a more extreme position, and just getting by. Ergo, all talk of alignments is just hogwash, just live life... which in the real world is perfectly fine, but in a world that actually has profound alignments, is actually very dangerous.
MARKZ137:Yes, I have read something similar before. Alignment have to be taken into account with society you are in. Which is why good characters are so badass in dark fantasy (they would otherwise be long dead), but lame in LG societies. :) Also, does finding the TN’s point of view not hilarious but the most rational, make me as a person true neutral? :D
Why wouldn't they? second most common language in China, and we have all those subversive ideas coming from all over the world.
MARKZ137:Well, I know they do censure everything but to censure stuff even in english? :P
Interesting. These facts are equal to what I know/expected, but the way you look at them/evaluate them is completely different: 1. They are completely loyal to Mother Nature. You may say they are not disciplined, or that they do not respect law, but from my perspective they just have their own laws that they obey. If they are not lawful, why do they never do exceptions? 2. They are trying to make the world a better place, see it in the big picture and do not let others stop them. Seems like the typical “sacrificing for greater good” type of people that everyone sees as LE, but is actually the only “dark knight” saving the world (example 12). 3. I do not see Sama exploiting them. It seems to me more like she is one of them, helping them by presenting solutions never thought of before and bringing hope of better future. I do not see a reason they should get into conflict based on their personalities, so far.
Aelryinth:Void Brothers are True Neutral (as opposed to False Neutral). They have no respect for the laws of others beyond Mother Nature, because they are completely bound to Her. They don't respect the borders of mortals, nature is the world, their territory is the world. They don't live disciplined lives, they live the lives of extremely territorial sentients protecting their planet. They have little care for the minor troubles of people, because they are so set on dealing with the big ones. Mercy and charity are generally not things they worry about, because they are always on their way to kill someone or something trying to do bad things. They might WANT to be nice people... but they either don't have time, resent people for being judgmental, or get sold out by others routinely, so they just don't bother with it. They have a thankless job, nobody can truly understand them and what they are virtually compelled to do... and Sama's empathy and understanding is just catching them totally off guard. Void Brothers are the Intelligent and Dextrous Forsaken, clever, ruthless, pragmatic. They bury their emotions because they see the worst of the world all the time. They are getting blindsided by empathy they aren't prepared to deal with, and she's twisting them around her finger. Which doesn't mean they don't have plots and plans of their own...
Wow, thank you, this have blown my mind. I have never before seen good in so dogmatic way. If looked at in this way, good actually seems just as crazy as evil is. And with this viewpoint, there is almost no one truly good. Completely different to everything I have seen so far. Also thank you for that reference on Anubis cleric, I will use it as a reference for my LG necro. :D And yeah, I am not so deeply versed with DnD/Pathfinder/Paizo. I have only read stubs of these and most my actual experience with these rules comes from local variant of DnD (which is a lot different) and videogames. I have never had to deal with the “negative energy radiation” problem. Seems like stuff that could make more problems for dark mage players. I will definitively use it in some way.
Aelryinth:Actually, the unleashing of radiation upon a populace IS seen as evil. Nuclear power is different, that makes energy. But blowing up a nuclear power plant and shedding dust on an area to make in uninhabitable is basically textbook evil, and a huge terrorist threat. I don't think you understand the G/E axis. Good is not opposed to Evil. Good DENIES Evil. Name a single thing a Good person can do,that an Evil person cannot. There is nothing. Now, name some things an Evil person can do, that a Good person cannot. There are TONS. Good denies itself from doing those actions. Ergo, Good is a subset of Evil, that denies Evil actions. This is why evil refers to good people as 'close-minded'. They simply won't entertain evil notions and options. Evil, Neutral and Good are like an ascending mountain of self-restriction, where fewer and fewer things are permissible. As for undead: White necromancers frequently work with Guardians of the Dead gods. If you are in FR, Anubis' church has many white necromancers in this role. Negative energy kills people and has NO positive benefits for the living. It long term degrades the environment, increases the rate of stillborn, reduces fertility, increases illness... it is exactly like inflicting radiation damage on a society. As for undead being evil... it's because undead are negative energy lifeforms. An undead you is not you, it's a negative energy version of you. All the instincts of life and light and stuff are mirrored to negative energy. Undead are not alive, they are undead, caught between life and death. They are not the soul of the damned, they are a fraction of it. Animating the body of a murderer does not save the murderer at all. If you come back as a wight, you will kill your friends, family, and neighbors as a matter of course, because you are a negative energy version of yourself, and these living fools who dared bring you back will pay for that transgression. Baelnorns and archliches literally require divine intervention to retain their Good alignment (from the elven gods and Mystra, respectively). Otherwise, they face the same fate as all liches. Also, my story uses the Paizo paradigm, that undead are automatically and intrinsically evil, negative energy lifeforms driven to destroy the living. Skeletons and zombies, left uncontrolled, will wander around trying to find the living to kill. Spirits trapped in undeath may be Good, esp. with overarching things that need to be done...but they aren't something a person can conjure up and make a servant, they are poor souls trapped between life and death, suffering torment until they are freed. The energy of life wants to break down your bones and flesh, and let new life grow forth from them once you die. Undeath breaks the cycle of life AND the cycle of death. It's generally indefensible... but evil people love it because its so very practical, and nobody cares if you make slaves of the dead... because that's what you are doing.
The Brothers aren't Good because they don't really have 'higher causes and good for all' in mind. Their aggression comes from massively heightened territorialism, and mercy isn't really a part of the Natural equation. Casters playing with bad **** are the same as someone waving around radioactive material. Things from Outside are killers trying to snipe you through your windows. Impure magic and natural contamination is like a mound of sewage dumped on their front porch. They are far too sensitive to such things that are anathema to the Land, and so are compelled to do something about them, the same way you don't want to breathe in rotten eggs all day. They don't really have laws, other then a code among themselves which amounts to heightened pack instincts only other Voids can understand. They are less sacrificing then being compelled. Fighting the compulsion results in insanity and death via being unable to properly filter magic with their Helix, boom! Sama is totally exploiting them - she has Void Brothers doing scouting for her, suborned their intelligence network, they are discussing their plans in the back of her head for her to listen to... total exploitation! (replace Void Brothers with, oh, the CIA to understand it better). She is also making them Weapons, giving them leveling advice, giving them intimate exposure to Good people, and bucketloads of understanding and emotional support, without giving a care for their reps. It's an exchange from a 30 Wis, 31 Charisma woman to a bunch of moderate Wis, high INT loner men, who is no threat to them and they enjoy being around. Nulls are like rocks Voids can lean on without regret. They are totally awed by her, and the fact they are doing stuff with coincides with what she is a Great Thing they can use to stick around her.
MARKZ137:Interesting. These facts are equal to what I know/expected, but the way you look at them/evaluate them is completely different: 1. They are completely loyal to Mother Nature. You may say they are not disciplined, or that they do not respect law, but from my perspective they just have their own laws that they obey. If they are not lawful, why do they never do exceptions? 2. They are trying to make the world a better place, see it in the big picture and do not let others stop them. Seems like the typical “sacrificing for greater good” type of people that everyone sees as LE, but is actually the only “dark knight” saving the world (example 12). 3. I do not see Sama exploiting them. It seems to me more like she is one of them, helping them by presenting solutions never thought of before and bringing hope of better future. I do not see a reason they should get into conflict based on their personalities, so far.
